In time, the spouse of a problem drinker will have clarity as to how to proceed. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. . My mother would ask me the same question over and over. Everyone here is pro-help for alcoholics, everyone here thinks that compassion is right. Loving accountability along the way always helps prevent expulsion because it can guard against backsliding. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. You can get a taste for it in Jrs self-obsessed novella that he published on his ministry web site many years ago, Ligonier Tales. That he should get treatment; and With that much trauma to the face I would tend to say that you are fortunate to not have sustained crippling injuries to your neck and/or traumatic brain injury. That was not my post or quote. HUG, precisely Paving the way, so to speak. Sure there are some bums out there. Right. @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour. Dont imagine anything but being run out on a rail. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. She told me before she died that she had forgiven him & she never thought she would. In the end, people hurt. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. There was a need for push back, since in the beginning you never outlined your reasons supporting R.C. Sproul went home to be with the Lord this afternoon around 3 p.m. surrounded by his wife, Vesta, and family in his hospital room in Altamonte Springs, Fla. Generally will not drink around them. That is an important element here. There are so many of us, Lisa. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. having some things to answer for. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. of wine was effective in taking the edge of the pain so that I did not have to use any stronger pain medicines. Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. You need to start your own blog really as you now look to me as though youre acting as gatekeeper/moderator here. And yes, I read the story above about the alcoholic lady who died, and her church paid for her funeral. It just says any and all sin can send a person to Hell, not that all sins are the same or equal. I agree with all of this but people also need to stop supporting abusive churches. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). But to say that is what is causing him to stumble? I dont have a compulsion to drink. Thanks for giving us that information. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Maybe Barbara would support all that stuff is it fair to base your arguments on silence? He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. He probably was already drunk, or at least under the influence. Yes, very insightful. I do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. You might as well talk to a brick wall. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. 721 Smith Rd. is obviously angry and much of it is rightly so. Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. For all that you talked about how you knew about recovery programs, you showed a lack of knowledge about Al-Anon (for the family and friends of problem drinkers) and said to Lisa who posted here what they would tell her to do if she went, including that sponsors would advocate separation. That is odd. And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. And the pile-on. . Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Start owning up to what you do. Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Being Married to a Pedophile: A Wife Speaks Out and Offers Hope to Other Wives ofPedophiles, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Motion The Revealer - Olusolacoker.com, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement The Revealer, Claire Roise: Oppressed and Defenseless Women within the Church, Flying Free: Help for Survivors of Emotional Abuse, Lori Anne Thompson on Clergy Sexual Misconduct. And its important to try. Its deeply odd for a grown man to mock anyone who doesnt drink. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. But if he is routinely drinking and driving with kids in the car, he might have been better off to spend some time in jail since that is a serious concern. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. Awful. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. I did read your post, Daisy. That is wrong. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. He said "wine" not alcohol. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. I would not doubt it all. Very well stated. But a sex hook up account? Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee) Haha. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. Hope makes not ashamed. @ refugee: Maybe my white coat still hanging in the back of my closet may still have a blood stain which did not wash out. I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. I didnt know about his second marriage. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. We can do better. Thats wonderful, Leslie, that you started a safe group that was so helpful to other parents. It will help you recognize that the picture you paint about RC Jr is wishful thinking that doesnt line up with reality. I am not defending excommunication in any way. It is surely a complex issue with no single cause. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. As a Christian I have to look at it like their eternal soul is the MOST important thing of all, much more important than any earthly hardships could be. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. Would you PLEASE STOP! I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Two or three witnesses principle. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Velour wrote: . Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. Velour wrote: Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Its about time for another trip to Portland or Spokane to stock up again! "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" And, yes, there is more. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. He lost one wife and two beautiful daughters because of it. Although no church is perfect, some have lousy ideas about caring. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? To me, the word excommunicate evokes a ceremonial process, in which a congregation is informed that a certain member is no longer a member. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! This was still a ways off, so I turned into the first driveway and waited. 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